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Billy Graham was the last holdout. An immovable Christian. A champion of orthodoxy. But the pastor to Presidents has become a political operative. He has gone from America’s preacher to a doctrinal deviant. The protestant Pope has spoken. Mormonism is no longer a cult. Why? Cuz Billy says so. Once again conservative Christians have happily sold out their religious convictions for their politics. I’m sure Billy Graham would be turning in his grave if only he had the decency to die sooner. This from Christianity Today:

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association removed language labeling Mormonism a “cult” from its website after the famed preacher met with Republican nominee Mitt Romney last week and pledged to help his presidential campaign.

The removal came after a gay rights group reported that the “cult” reference remained online even after Graham all but endorsed Romney, a Mormon, last Thursday (Oct. 11).

Ken Barun, the BGEA’s chief of staff, confirmed the removal on Tuesday.

“Our primary focus at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association has always been promoting the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” Barun said in a statement. “We removed the information from the website because we do not wish to participate in a theological debate about something that has become politicized during this campaign.”

Surveys show that most evangelicals do not consider Mormons to be Christian, but most still support Romney’s candidacy. The GOP nominee will need a strong turnout from evangelicals, who tally a quarter of the electorate, to defeat President Barack Obama on Nov. 6.

27 Comments

  1. Did Billy say Mormonism isn’t a cult? I don’t think so. Did you read the article you posted?

    “Our primary focus at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association has always been promoting the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” Barun said in a statement. “We removed the information from the website because we do not wish to participate in a theological debate about something that has become politicized during this campaign.”

    The Christian hypocrites would seem to be those who vote with a party who promotes the sins of homosexual behavior and killing babies (abortion). It’s one thing to commit a sin, but promoting a sin is such a grievous act that Jesus said it would be better if you were to be “thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck” than to promote sin. (Luke 17:2)

  2. The Graham website has conveniently removed the information from their site for partisan reasons. That is not disputable. Advocating equality in marriage is no more “promoting” homosexual behavior than advocating heterosexual marriage for fornicators promotes fornication and adultery. Abortions have been and will be performed whether they are legal or illegal. Roe V Wade does not require that anyone have an abortion. Abortions and homosexual sin will never be the norm. No one is strapping millstones to anyone.

  3. If it is an unplanned pregnency there are two guilty parties and one innocent party. If it is a rape there is one guilty party and two innocent parties. In both cases, the state says that it ok to executed the innocent party. This side of the fall of man, your are correct that murder will happend legal or illegal but we also don’t have to pretend that in all cases innocent life is executed.

  4. Artie I’m very disappointed in your reply. I thought you might agree that promoting abortion and homosexual behavior was both a sin and a tragedy but reason your support in some other way. There is perfect equality in marriage right now – you know this. Everyone, including homosexuals, is allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex. The party you support advocates homosexual marriage, and institution not originated nor ordained by God. Homosexuals advocating for homosexual “marriage” do so because it legitimizes their sin – you know that. Supporting homosexual marriage is clearly against the will of God, and no amount of wrangling of the facts on your part will make that different.

    Abortions have and will be performed, you’re right. Murder has and will be performed. Rape has and will be performed. So by your reasoning, we should make murder and rape legal as well, because, hey, you can’t stop all of it. Maybe we should make murder and rape legal so we could set up clinics to help the murderers and rapist commit these acts, safely. Far too many murderers and rapist are hurt or even killed while committing their acts. Would this be in your line of reasoning? Maybe we could even get federal funding for murder/rape centers. I’m sure your party would support it. Oh, and laws against murder and rape do not require the murderers or rapist to commit these acts.

    Since 1973 there have been over FIFTY MILLION abortions, just in the U.S. In NY, over 40% of all would be births are aborted by their mothers and helping physicians. Fifty million children in the US have been legally murdered by their mother, and the Democratic party even supports the horrific practice of partial-birth abortions where the child’s head is pulled out of the womb and then executed. Abortion in the U.S. makes the holocaust look like a minor event (it wasn’t)

    I hope you’ll pray about your participation in homosexuality and abortion.

  5. Brian, I believe that it is inconsistent with our founding principles to impose Christian views about abortion, homosexually or Sabbath keeping on our citizenry. If we lived under Anglican, Catholic, Islamic or Lutheran governance I think that it would be appropriate. I am sorry that you think the way I vote promotes abortions. I believe the way you vote puts more people in poverty. Women get abortions for a variety of reasons, chief among them, economic reasons. I believe the politics you promote increase the number of abortions in this country more than liberalism ever has. Incidentally, teen abortions are higher among girls raised in conservative homes who attend Christian schools. You may be “promoting” abortion without knowing it. Banning partial-birth abortions doesn’t save a single baby––this is only a manipulative tool of the right––amazed that you don’t know that. Anyway, I will be happy to pray for you in this matter. For the record, I am against legalizing rape. Particularly what you call “legitimate” rape.

  6. Artie, respectfully, if you believe that it’s inconsistent with our founding principles to impose Christian views about abortion or homosexuality then you don’t know what our founding principles are. Fortunately for my sanity, I just had this discussion with a family member on Facebook. I’ll share that post here for you:

    Our country was founded with a belief of separating state from church, not church from state. At the time of the declaration of independence almost all of the colonies required members of their legislature to be a Christian. Most of the founders were devout Christians, and those who weren’t were in favor of Christianity. Franklin, a Deist, supported Christian churches with his own money and proposed this for the seal of the United States:

    “Moses standing on the Shore, and extending his Hand over the Sea, thereby causing the same to overwhelm Pharaoh who is sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his Head and a Sword in his Hand. Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Clouds reaching to Moses, to express that he acts by Command of the Deity.
    “Motto, Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God.”

    The word “God” appears five times in the Declaration of Independence and scripture and references to God are found in the Washington Monument, in the halls of the Supreme Court of the United States and most every other place of importance in Washington.

    “The framers of our Constitution did not want America to become a theocracy. They did not believe in a theocratic state. The framers of our Constitution did not want clergymen to pick the Presidents and set government policy. However, this is not to say that they saw no role for religion in government. The framers most certainly did believe that religion and religious values should influence the government and its policies. George Washington’s first Proclamation as President made this abundantly clear. On the day that Congress finished its work on the First Amendment, it called on President George Washington to issue a Proclamation to the people of the United States to thank God for the freedoms we enjoy. A week and a day later the President’s opening paragraph in his Proclamation said: “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor . . .” Note 2. The words “to obey His will” are fatal to any suggestion that George Washington and the framers of our Constitution believed in “secularism.” In America, religious values influence government policy through the vote of the people.”

    If our laws are not based on religious beliefs, then they are based on irreligious beliefs. There is no neutral basis upon which we can pass laws. The absence of God suggest that God has no place, and is in fact, the practice of Atheism, which the Supreme Court has declared a religion. So there has to be a basis for right and wrong upon which you pass laws. Either it will be a religious basis, or a secular and atheist basis.

  7. Regarding abortion, I’m just going to stop talking to you about it. You are supporting a party that promotes abortion and homosexuality. Economic hardship as an excuse for abortion only accounts for 23% of abortions. You can justify your vote for a party that promotes abortion and homosexuality all day long if you want. But it is what it is.

    • You support a party that only cares about helping the rich get richer through laws, lobbying and war. It has spent forty years manipulating religious people to blindly vote for any candidate who calls themselves “pro-life.” It was decimated the middle class through its governance and proclaimed symbolic “pro life” victories by banning a procedure that is only one of several procedures used for terminating late pregnancies. I foolishly voted for 35 years as if abortion was the only issue in every election. Fortunately, I have seen through the charade. You can talk your guilt-baiting elsewhere. There are real issues in this election. Abortion rights is a get out the vote used by both parties to manipulate single issue voters.

  8. In the case of abortion, the protection of life is a founding principle (the Declaration of Independence type). I will give you homosexuallity and Sabbath breaking but murder is murder. You understanding of how wealth is created is so off that there is no reaston to comment. Yes, christian parents sin in raising of their children and christian school girls get pregnant. It doesn’t make murder, not murder.

  9. Artie, let me reply to just one of your ideas from this thread. –> “Brian, I believe that it is inconsistent with our founding principles to impose Christian views about abortion, homosexually or Sabbath keeping on our citizenry.”

    EVERY law on the books (even the import taxes on lettuce) is based on someone’s concept of morality. Law is just someone’s idea of morality backed by the threat of government violence/sanctions. There is no such thing as “neutral” ethics and there can be no such thing as “neutral” law. In the case of abortion, the central question must be, is the fetus a living human? The answer (scientifically) is yes.

    A fetus meets all of the biological standards of a living organism.
    A fetus is 100% genetically human.
    Therefore, the fetus is a living human.

    A good measure of how just a nation’s laws are is how well they protect the innocent and weak from the strong aggressor. Our abortion laws are very unjust and immoral indeed. We never talk about the rights of the aggressor not to be inconvenienced by the innocent and weak and therefore the weak can be killed.

    By the way, this is also the reason I am strongly against the Republican (and increasingly Democrat) war policies. We are drone bombing countries because we are inconvenienced by their policies. (Obama has added the assassination of American citizens without a trial to those atrocities.) This is why I am against the Republican (and Democrat) rendition/torture policies against suspected terrorists (which the Democrats promised to stop but instead expanded). Both are the strong violently forcing (and sometimes killing) the weak to advance what are often monetary positions. Likewise, you are right about Republican corporate policy being immoral. However, Democrats gave up the moral ground on this issue when they willingly supported and participated in (along with the Republicans) the largest financial corporate raid against the public ever in the history of mankind in the TARP and other bailouts. Interesting that the Obama campaign got a lot more corporate money support than any other president in history (including Bush or McCain). Why do you think that is? Because Obama was going to fight the corporations and champion the people? Follow the money.

    To sum up, Artie you are right in opposing Republican violence (both physical and monetary) against the weak. However, you have thrown your support behind another group doing the same violent corporatist nonsense Bush did. You would make a great Libertarian which is the only group taking a non-violent, non-corporatist, route on these issues. Take off the Democrat jersey and just leave the bread-and-circuses show of the Democrat-Republican false-dichotomy behind. Democrat violence deserves your scorn as much as the Republican violence does. If you want to justify abortion violence, war violence, economic violence, or any other kind just because your guys and gals are doing it, go ahead. But that makes you no different than the Republicans you rail against.

    • Nice sales pitch, Thomas. I am actually an independent. The jerseys I wear come off and on all the way down the ballot. Sometimes I am doing the godly thing and voting for a Republican like I did with Rick Perry (the moron) and the next moment I am doing the wicked, godless act of voting for Obama (the only confessing Christian that Jesus didn’t die for). So my vote is always up for grabs. As soon as the Libertarians put up an electable candidate I might throw my support their way. But I value my vote too much to only register a protest vote.

  10. Artie the Republican party cares about *all* people and attempts to create a rising tide that increases income and jobs for everyone. BOTH parties are influenced by the rich. Goldman Sachs has had just as big of a hand in the Obama administration as the Bush administration. Democrats desire bigger government that they can control to their benefit and therefore also desire more poor people that will suck from the government dole. Democrat policies make everyone poorer, Republican policies make everyone richer. Democrats are happy to take other people’s money, but do not care to give their own. (studies show conservatives give much more to charity than Democrats ( http://bit.ly/SE9eP9 )and I’ve yet to hear of one Democrat who voluntarily gave more of his own money to the government. Obama and Biden’s record of charitable giving is terrible, and Romneys is great. This has been true with every President in my life time. Dems give very little, Republicans give a lot). Democrat cities are getting very poor, Republican led cities are not. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhendrickson/2012/05/31/president-obamas-wealth-destroying-goal-taking-the-curley-effect-nationwide/) Dems enslave poor people (mostly minorities) with public disincentives to work. The enslavement results in votes for Democrats but deteriorating neighborhoods with crime, drugs and prostitution for the poor people that Dems claim to care about.

    We can argue till we’re blue in the face about economic solutions but your belief that the Democratic party has a better economic solution is not the point. The point is that the party you support promotes the sins of homosexuality and abortion. The Republican party may not be right on every issue, but they do not promote sin. God may not be happy with the decisions Republicans make at times, but I assure you that God has no tolerance for people or groups who promote sin. Since 1973 FIFTY MILLION BABIES have been killed by abortion. The vicious killing of children deeply disturbs my soul and I grieve for the babies and the grievous sins against God.

    Artie this discussion is hard for me because while I do feel that you are sinning in supporting abortion and homosexuality I also like you and respect you and care for you and think of you as a kind and loving person. It’s difficult for me to see how you can love God and yet treat the promotion of the mass murder of his children with such little regard. Perhaps I’m just not understanding your position well without speaking to you in person.

    • See, this is your confusion. Democrats also believe in self-sufficiency and taking responsibility. That’s how the raise their kids, too. No differently than Republican parents. (Well, frankly the baby boomers of both stripes are encouraging long-term adolescence , but that’s another blog) And like Republicans, Democrats contribute to the charities that match their personal values. But the charitable giving of all the Republicans and all the Democrats comes up short. This is the only reason that government ever got into the welfare business. If this country ever saw the sort of Ayn Rand “selfishness is good” reductionism that Ryan budget cuts advocate, every church in America would have to seriously jack up their benevolence funds and hire social workers and bureaucrats to help the people who will no longer have a safety net.

      I gave the Republican party 35 years of my voting to overturn Roe V. Wade. They gave me tax cuts, more weapons, that thousand points of light BS and spilled blood of thousands of men and women in two ill-conceived wars. The Supreme Court judges they appointed have made godless, horrible decisions on issue, after issue. And last I checked, Roe V.Wade is still the law. I see what the Republicans true agenda is. It ain’t babies that they are concerned for.

      Both parties win elections by patchwork constituencies. If Romney is elected it will be thanks to his double talk that has attracted tea partyists, Aryan Nation extremists, pro-lifers, Gambler lobbyists, brothel owners, Cuban tobacooists, vicious secular homophobs, God Hates Faggers and the wealthy, self-centered poor haters, as well as upright conservatives and well-meaning supply side independents.

      Sure, do I wish there were more Pro-life Democrats in Washington? There were. But your tea party folks voted them out in 2010. Nice work, baby killing, budget balancing tea baggers.

      So here is my deal. Why don’t you Pro-life Republican’ts focus on the “most important issue” in this and every election: saving the unborned? You’ve done a piss-poor job so far. But it’s only because you were too concerned with other matters, cutting taxes on millionaires, enriching oil companies, deregulating banks, etc. Get focused.

      You guys focus on those nine months the baby spends in the womb. Then leave the 80 or so years on this side of the birth canal to the Democrats. Because from the time the baby takes his first breath to he takes his last, there is only one party that is truly pro-life and it ain’t the GOP.

      Brian, the GOP is every bit as flawed, godless and sinful as the Democratic party. Take a break from Glenn Beck right wing echo chamber and you might actually see it.

        • Brian
        • Posted November 4, 2012 at 5:51 pm
        • Permalink

        Artie you continue to dodge the issue. Democrats promote sin, Republicans do not. Promoting sin, according to God, is a very serious sin, so much so that you would be better off if someone threw you in the lake with a millstone around your neck. You support the promotion of sin. You support the party that justified slavery, and now justifies abortion. Whether Republicans have been successful in defeating Democrats to stop abortion is irrelevant.

      • I am dodging nothing. YOU ARE NOT LISTENING. Republican promote YOUR sins. Greed, selfishness, covetousness, slander, hatred, lying (Both Romneys cannot be telling the truth), usury, favoritism of the rich, failure to advocate for the poor, etc. They preach the false gospels of Ayn Rand and Darwin. Brian, you must have a different version of the Bible that you read. Pretty sure that homosexuality is not only sin mentioned in there. Sure God knits us in our mother’s wombs but the scriptures are next to silent on matter of the the death of an unborn baby (if anything it insinuates that a baby who is killed in the womb doesn’t deserve a life-for-life restitution, that hardly fits the term murder). Ensoulment of the fetus has been a long discussed philosophical speculation, but it is not exactly a slam dunk biblically. By the way, slavery isn’t a biblical sin. And what you are calling slavery is not slavery. But nice try at making your list of Democratic sins look longer. By the way, the sins of Democrats are many. Just not the simplistic way you think.

        • Brian
        • Posted November 4, 2012 at 6:47 pm
        • Permalink

        Artie you confuse the sins that may cause Republicans to make certain policies with the sin of promoting sin. Both parties are made up of sinful people. One party promotes the sins of homosexuality and abortion, the other does not promote any sin.

      • I don’t think you understand what the word “promote” means. Do you think freedom of religion “promotes” Muslims or “promotes” Islam? Do you think freedom of speech “promotes” profanity or “protects” it? Do you think of the press “promotes” FOX News or “protects” it? The Democratic platform declares it will protect abortion rights which is a 40 year old law. It does not say abortions are really cool, you should try it. The Democratic party is committed to extending marital legal rights to gay couples. It is not promoting gay marriage. And by the way, if homosexual sin offends the Republican party so much why aren’t you advocating capital punishment for homosexuals? That would be a biblical response, right? And what about mothers who kill an unborn child. If you believe that is murder, and you do. What is the godly response? Do you believe in the death penalty for murder? I do. How about it, Brian? Where is your party now? Soft on sin? How about fornicators? Most abortions are simply the result of fornication. Where is your constitutional amendment banning illicit sex between heterosexuals? Or is that not a sin? Or–and this is the BIG question– are THOSE PEOPLE’s sins the only one you are so vehemently against? Hmmmmm?

  11. “How Much Weight Should Our Opposition To Abortion Carry In Our Voting Decisions?” – by R.C. Sproul, Jr. http://www.borntoreform.com/how-much-weight-should-our-opposition-to-abortion-carry-in-our-voting-decisions/

  12. ok, one more article – Peter makes my point exactly: http://www.peterheck.com/peterheck/features/view/32561/is_it_a_sin_to_vote_for_democrats_

    “Reading the list of supposed justifications for why Christians can turn a blind eye towards this outrageous offense, I imagine these Democrat apologists writing similar essays in the 1930s of how the Nazi Party was doing great things for infrastructure and social welfare programs in Germany. “Never mind that killing of the Jews thing,” they would essentially argue. That’s the underlying current of the Christian Democrat defense – “never mind the killing of the unborn beings made in God’s image thing.” That’s not to say that Democrats are Nazis, of course. It’s to say that there is something dreadfully wrong with your priorities and moral compass when you try to find ways to excuse genocide. As a believer, I cannot imagine justifying that to God. ‎It’s interesting, isn’t it? Christian Democrats used to find ways to justify their support of a party that promoted slavery. Now they do the same for a party promoting abortion. Tragic.

  13. Wow! Now you’re getting desperate! Nazis?? You’ll definitely win me over to voting for Romney if you play the Nazi card. Seriously, you can stop now. You had me at Hitler, you silver-tongued devil!

  14. You know, the thing the whole world said about the holocaust was that we will never forget. We’ll learn from this. This type of thing will never happen again. But it has, in proportions that dwarf what the Nazi’s have done, and people on the left find it silly and suggest that even mentioning the horror of the holocaust is something that only crazy people do.

  15. pro·mote /prəˈmōt/
    Verb:
    Further the progress of (something, esp. a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.

    The official Democratic Party platform “strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay.”

    There’s no group in the history of mankind that has done more to further the progress of abortion than the Democrat party.

    But you’re not a Democrat anyway, right? So all you have to do is vote for candidates that are pro-life and oppose special rights for homosexuals. If you can say you’re going to do that, then I will totally respect your position, whether the candidates you vote for are Democrat (there are *some* pro-life Dems, although the Democrat party is trying to boot them out) or Republican. I certainly would not vote for any person in a legislative position who was pro-abortion, whether they were Democrat or Republican.

  16. Artie, you did sidestep the main argument I made in my comment. That all of the immoral corporatist, war-hawk, etc. actions the Republicans do are fully a part of Democrat policy as well.

    One difference is what the two groups do with the poor. Redistribution of wealth by force is inefficient (leading to less for everybody), based on violence (which is immoral), and unbiblical. Unbiblical because we are called to private property but generosity and stewardship of the things placed in our care. Christians have historically been the major force in caring for the poor. Only recently the government has forcefully taken over that role. However, they have done so by taking over half of all that people earn every year which cripples many individual families and even then most of the money never reaches who it is supposed to go to. When giving is through the church and not the state, the efficiency is far, far higher. People say the church would not be able to handle the modern load. Nonsense. They have historically always been able to handle it and have done it with far greater compassion than government bureaucrats. Not only that, if the church does the work God gets the glory rather than the state.

    So with the Democrat party’s inefficient, unbiblical, and immoral position on the economy along with full participation in aggressive foreign war/regime change/torture/assassination of Americans without trial, along with getting in bed with the vile abortion industry, perhaps you can at least see a little why your non-Democratic friends are confused when you try to make a moral argument for that particular party.

    Perhaps you could explain…
    1. Why Obama got more corporate money than any other candidate in history and why he handed more public money over to rich corporation CEO’s than any other world leader in the history of mankind.
    2. Why Obama spent more on foreign war in his first four years than Bush did in his first four years.
    3. Why Obama INCREASED Bush’s Patriot Act spying, kidnapping, foreign base interrogating (so those pesky human rights issues could be circumvented) etc. including the expansion of assassination before being found guilty for American citizens.
    4. How abortion when thrown on top of all the same things the neo-cons do doesn’t make them especially odious.

    It is likely you will not answer these four points and for good reason. It exposes the gross hypocrisy of the Democrat party which accuses the Republicans of these things but has INCREASED every single one of them proving they support them just as much as the Republicans do. (Like the Republicans crying about high taxes and big government but making huge government-size increases under Bush and Reagan.) So please do consider defending the last four years of Obama using the four points above and explain how a Democrat Party which have done measurably more than even the Bush neo-cons in these areas AND also back abortion is worthy of your vote.

  17. Artie, my four points above were not rhetorical. I would love to hear a Democrat explain the moral superiority of expanding military spending and killing abroad, increasing human rights violations with assassinations and drone bombings, plundering the people of this country on behalf of the super rich more than all republican presidents put together, and making sure the abortion mills are running smoothly.

    Happy election day everyone. May you get what you deserve.

  18. Clearly, if you are looking for a political party that is morally pristine, you will not find one. Parties like the Green Party and Libertarians have the luxury of being consistent and unsullied by corporate money. Why? Because they will NEVER hold power. NEVER. My politic bias is you need to win to effect policies. The changes the Libertarians and the Greenies advocate are high-minded and noble. But alas, they will never see the light of day. Want to win? Want to govern? Want to be Commander in Chief? You better not be a pacifist. You want to deal with Islamic terrorism? You can spill more American blood or you can embrace technology to take out bad guys. I do not aspire to be Menno Simons. I am okay with war. And am okay with taxation. I am okay with people getting rich. I don’t see Jesus as a pacifist. I certainly believe he was cool with rendering to Washington that which bears his image. I know that Obama and Democrats are not above suspcion and I disagree with them over various issues. I know of no President or elected party is above reproach. At the end of the day I will always vote either Republican or Democratic. I want to pull a viable lever. The neo-cons and the shameless propaganda machine of today’s GOP has made me lose respect for them. That may change. Today, the Democrats are the only viable choice. I was pleased when Pro-Life Democrats were sent to Washington. And frankly (since neither of you are shy about telling ME how I should vote) if you believe Roe V Wade should be overturned and not the law of the land, and if you agree with Brian that is the most important issue in this and any election, I think you should be voting for Romney. Voting Libertarian or not voting is the same as voting Democratic. You are effectively helping to keep Pro-Choice law, the law of the land.

    • Artie, again I agree with your anti-neo-con stance. I do strongly disagree in the highest terms that a vote for the greens or libertarians is a waste. Although they likely will not win in the short term, by voting for them one is declaring that they have left the deep corruption of the two major parties behind and are striving for something better. Were the civil rights and suffrage movements seen as wastes of time at first? You bet. Were those supporting them told they were wasting time, money, and effort? Of course. I will happily “waste time and effort” in telling the filth of both parties that they are worth me going to the polls to defeat them both.

      As to my “four points” listed above; I was not demanding ideological purity, I was asking what moral high-ground the Dems have over the neo-cons when in essentially every area Bush was declared a monster, Hitler, Satan, etc. the Dems have gone further than even he dared to go. I am not saying they somehow missed perfection, I am saying that they willingly and greedily engaged in exactly the same things and even advanced Bush’s evil causes.

      In all fairness, you sidestepped the four points once again and I think that is telling.


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